.
I enjoy a good discussion and always like to see new data and this
discussion on M-151's is most interesting. I never mind being corrected
if my data is incorrect but I like to have it verified by hard facts and
data. Some of the statements made bring questions to my mind. Such as.....
Julian wrote,
........If anyone was at the KC show last month, you would have seen the
diesel
prototype of the A2 jeep from AMG. It was one of two built and perhaps the
only one left in existence. Amazingly, this prototype was found in a barn
about 5 miles from the factory! .......... It was in need of total
restoration and looked like a cobbled up A2 body on an M38A1 chassis-solid
axles which is exactly what it was, it looked totally homemade but was a
real prototype from AMG.
Humm..... I saw it and it was very interesting. Julian, do you know
why it had a Budd body if AMG produced all their own bodies? (The vehicle
had a BUDD # body number plate on the center of the fire wall) Why would
AMG use an older body if they had new ones right in shop? I had a good
"crawl under, look over " of it and it really did look VERY crude. In
fact, it looked like it was made up by a blacksmith and not a prototype
shop. I've seen photos of a solid axle M-151 (Ford I believe) that was a
very well done job by the prototype shop and there was no comparison
between the two. Is there any documentation that verifies this is a
factory built unit and not put together by a worker or someone who got a
body and put it together? I know a solid axle M-151 was built but can we
be sure this is it?
...................There were four
manufacturers of the bodies-Ford, Budd, Fruehauf and AMG. These were "spec"
bodies and all parts were interchangeable. I don't know what Ford's
involvement was in producing bodies but Ford wanted total control in pretty
much everything they did.....(earlier posting I forgot Fruehauf but indicated
that) Perhaps early on (early 60's) they discovered that it was cheaper to
farm them out than produce bodies themselves.
Do you have any hard data on the Ford produced bodies? Which Ford
plant built them and where they were stamped out? In all the data
contained in the SMVO (Special Military Vehicle Operations) files in the
Ford Industrial Archives I cannot find any information on production M-151
series bodies being built by Ford. Of course, the T-122 and XM-151 were
Ford built but these were only prototypes. I would certainly like to know
of any data on this.
.................After all, it was a Ford design anyway................
Actually, according to the development and production contracts between
Ford and the Government, the Government held all control over every part of
the design and manufacture of the jeep. It was Ford's design, but the
Government controlled all the tooling, patent rights, exclusivity rights,
and "owned" the design of the final product. The government also controlled
who could build the design and could grant production and patent use rights
to any company it chose by virtue of the lowest bidder. This is why the
M-151 series production contracts went back and forth between Ford and
Willys/Kaiser/AMC/AMG.
Ken (muttguru) wrote,
<< (Quoting me)Ford Motor Co. did not manufacture the bodies for the
MUTTS. All
production bodies for Ford were made by the Budd Co.>>
........This is incorrect, I'm sorry to say.......
Ken, never be sorry to correct me IF I'm incorrect. I seek the
facts. If my being wrong gets me the correct data than it's a very good thing.
................. The first batches of the M151 model had
bodies built by Fruehauf, and I have photos of the Fruehauf body plate (which
was NOT located between the hood hinges) to prove it...... they clearly show
Fruehauf as the manufacturer along with the contract number and body
number...............
More very interesting information! Now, I know that Ken knows his
stuff but....I have to ask for hard data on the use of Fruehauf bodies on
Ford built M-151's. When, how many, how long, and why switch to Budd Co.
for bodies? I have (so far) only seen Willys/Kaiser MUTTS with the
Fruehauf body tag. I have an actual Fruehauf body tag in my collection
that I took off the front frame rail of a M-151 along with the (non Ford)
dash data plate. The body plate is a thin foil material and reads:
Body by Fruehauf Corp.
Body serial No. DLD - 9533
Ordinance assembly 8754459
There is no "contract number" on this tag.
Now this body number brings up another question. This plate was from a
Willys M-151. Ford had the first contract to produce the M-151. Willys
later won the contract for additional M-151's. If , as Ken says, " The
first batches of M-151model had bodies built by Fruehauf" then why is the
body Sn# for this later Willys one such a low number? The first Ford
contracts were for more than 9533 jeeps (if I remember correctly and I'll
check on this) and this body number should have been higher than this if it
was from a later contract using the same bodies by Fruehauf. It would be
nice to know what the DLD in the body number stood for. Does anyone on the
list have a Ford M-151 with a Fruehauf body tag? Or anyone have a Ford
built M-151/A1/A2 that does not have a Budd built body and that can verify
that it has the correct dash data plate? Or for that matter, does any
lister have, or know of anyone with a M-151 that can get the tag numbers?
I also have two other metal body tags (body manufacturer
unknown) which were mounted on the front frame rail of two other non Ford
MUTTs and read only:
Body serial No. 0985
Ordinance Assembly 8754459
The other tag reads the same but has a serial No. of 0666.
(I have the data plates that match these but I'm at work right now and
will be leaving for the Tobyhanna rally as soon as I get off so I can't
post the rest of the data until I get back Sunday).
I should note that one must be careful not to find a MUTT with a
Fruehauf body that has had its data plate replaced with a Ford one and
assume it is correct. My M-151-A2 is a good example of this. I replaced
the entire dash and fire wall with another off a Ford built one with a Budd
Sn.# plate still on it. The body is a AMG but a look under the hood
would show that it had a Budd body. Someday, some other owner may use this
as "proof" that AMG used Budd bodies......... This is why as many jeeps as
possible should be inspected before anything should be taken as fact. The
MUTTs I took these data plates and body plates were in their original
condition and had been sitting in a surplus yard for many years. Even
then, hard data should be used to confirm any findings.
BTW...In case you MUTT owners might not know, AMG stands for AM General
which stands for American Motors General. It originated from the old
American Motors Company. It was the division of AMC that built products for
the military and Government until it was sold off by the French.
I'm looking forward to seeing what data you guys have.
Jim
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
James T. Gilmore
2565 Wiethoff, Inkster Michigan 48141
313-5618826 (Voice)
313-730-1652 (Fax)
jgilmore@oeonline.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Tue Oct 24 2000 - 20:55:34 PDT