From: Dave Ball (vought@msn.com)
Date: Sun Sep 08 2002 - 00:44:50 PDT
I think the answer is simple it is not what you I or anyone else in the
hobby thinks it up to the man at the door or the airshow or event of your
choice once it is in his hands you have to prove you have the right to own
and operate it. I know of half a dozen people who went through this. Some
got there vehicles back, some did not, some went to jail, all lost a lot of
money.
If you are driving a 73 M151A2 and your title says its a 1973 Willys and the
man at your door has a sheet of paper and looks for the numbers on your
vehicle and it looks like a M151 and looks fishy what do you think will
happen... hopefully "sorry to disturb you have a nice day"
I was told by a California highway patrolman that use of the California
highways is a privilege that can be revoked at the states discretion and
that if it is decided a vehicle is unsafe he can have it towed to impound.
At the time I was driving (limping) a Commercial hummer home from an offroad
event and had a bad front end shimmy because of a bad ball joint (common) I
finished the trip in the front seat of a tow truck with the Hummer riding on
the flat bed.
I have not heard of any confiscations in a while 4 or 5 years Back at least.
If you are in the possession of former government property can you prove you
have the right to own it? without a doubt? That's all that matters at least
in my thinking I need that piece of mind when I drive on to a military
reservation in my vehicle.
Of course its good to get a property receipt at the gate if what you are
driving looks like what they are driving, only cleaner and in better shape.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "jonathon" <jemery@execpc.com>
To: "Military Vehicles Mailing List" <mil-veh@mil-veh.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 8:48 PM
Subject: [MV] Who's Vehicle is it? (was: Big Brother IS watching for sure!)
> >I think the Bureaucrats have given some of us a break. If not do you know
> >what would become of Gama Goats and 151A2's and a few other vehicles that
> >were demilled as in cut in half or rendered unoperational or sold with
paper
> >stating for off road use only.
> >Just because its repaired and registered for the highway by an agency not
in
> >the loop doesn't make it legal.
>
> I post this to the list in general, I am not being critical at all of your
> post Dave, the topic just got me thinking about this subject on a more
> general level.
>
>
> Since when does a seller of anything have any right, legally, to control
the
> use of something they sell to someone else?
>
> I have a thought experiment here, perhaps if you believe that property
> rights are absolute you'd agree with me, perhaps others have differing or
> divergent viewpoints.
>
> The M151 is a good example as I want one but after collecting this stuff
for
> almost 20 years I do not yet have one. Concider that I buy several
scrapped
> vehicles which were sold (auctioned) as scrap or residue. Now I spend much
> time and effort and perhaps money and I put one good vehicle back
together.
> Is it then an M151? If I go to the state to title and license it, is it an
> M151 to them? I would have to say no on both question, it is a
> reconstructed vehicle and perhaps depending on how much work I had to go
> thru it might even be concidered home built. But to a fellow MV collector,
> is it an M151? I'd say yes. I listen to people talk about titling
problems
> and I have to wonder what the big deal is with titles. Personally I think
> they are useless and should be abandonded all together. But that won't be
> happening soon. But what is the big deal about a title being correct for
> the vehicle as built? So what if it says a 1996 home built truck (my
> rewelded M151) or a 1963 Ford M151? So long as the serial number is
correct
> who cares? And as to serial numbers, I have talked to people where the
state
> refused to use the original number that was on the vehicle and they issued
a
> new VIN of the states choosing along with a small state issued tag and
> little rivets with a "W" on the head (W for Wisconsin) to attach it with.
> Seems to me if I had a choice between fighting them over a title that
> matched the vehicle as built and having a new VIN with a small id plate I
> had to attach somewhere, I guess I'd just as soon go with a new small
plate
> and new VIN for the title. What difference is that going to make to any
> person I would sell it to in the future?
>
> Going back to reconstructing an M151, lets take that a step further. What
if
> I was so inclinded to make a body from scratch that was indistiguishable
> from an original Ford or AMG. Is that then an M151? Having seen the work
of
> people such as John Geesink I would say that the right person can do this.
> As to this idea of the seller (government) controlling the use of what
they
> sell, at what point is the item you posess the same or not at all the same
> as the original item? Is the M151 that I got cut and then rewelded an
M151?
> What if I put a body together from many cut, crushed, or wrecked bodies,
> should they be able to lay some claim on that? What then if I make a body
> from scratch??? Where is that line, if any?
>
> Seem to me this stuff is sold (auctioned) by the government either as a
> whole operable vehicle, implying a 97 would come with it, or as scrap
metal.
> What I do with either is my business.
>
> So go another step. M60's, M1's etc. are not supposed to be in private
hands
> at all right? So what if I reconstruct one from scraped units? what if I
> make one from scratch? Can the government then come in and confiscate it?
Is
> either really a tank (of thiers)? Again..... how and where do you make the
> distinction?
>
>
> Sorry to ramble on so much, this topic is of some interest to me and it
has
> come up before, just looking for any interesting opinions I guess.
>
> later,
>
> je
>
>
>
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