From: Steve Grammont (islander@midmaine.com)
Date: Thu Jan 16 2003 - 19:06:57 PST
Dave,
>Machines are By themselves just machines and of little harm.
And uniforms kill people? That is quite a stretch.
>The uniforms become a symbol for what that group stood for and there actions
>regardless if the person wearing it was there when they gassed a child or
>sent her to Josephs Hospital of Horrors and Human experiment.
And the machines that took the people to their deaths are somehow not
relevant? It was because of these machines that the Germans were able to
conqure others and then enslave/murder them. I would like to see how
well Germans would have done if they marched into another country with
nothing but uniforms with a Swastikas on them. On the other hand, naked
Germans in tanks and armed with weapons could do a lot of harm
(especially if the enemy soldiers couldn't stop laughing!)
Machines are as much, if not more, symbols of the regime they serve as
uniforms are. If you want to consider yourself morally above the Nazis,
in your mind, you should cross Nazi vehicles and weapons off your
admiration list. It would be highly inconsistant not to.
>That person
>was a supporter of the efforts leading to her torture and horrible death and
>he was wearing that uniform a symbol of that groups beliefs and fellowship.
True, to some degree. But of course this "no exceptions" logic would
apply equally to the uniforms of every single US Army, Airforce, and
Naval uniform produced during the Vietnam war, even if they never set
foot in South East Asia. Or British, French, Dutch, Belgian, etc.
uniforms at any point in time of their Colonial rule. Soviet uniforms
produced from the time of the Revolution would also be off the list too.
In any case, the association this does not exempt the vehicles or weapons
used. They are all part of the whole. If you wish to morally shield
yourself from the regime, you must reject all of its products and
symbols. Not just the ones you don't think are cool.
>You are right.... as usual men can twist the facts to suit there own point
>of view and I guess you can separate what these evil men did from the
>uniforms they put every morning before going down to the trains.
There were more than a million men in SS uniforms that had nothing to do,
directly, with the extermination of the Jews. They fought as soldiers,
even if they more frequently than most broke the rules of war. Many
standard line infantrymen also comitted War Crimes and Crimes Against
Humanity. And I purposefully did NOT say "German line infantrymen"
because the US (as well as all others) comitted atrocities. But since
they won the war, not much is said about it.
>Selective Morality is that what you call it when you wear the same uniform
>after the smell of death has been dry cleaned from it.
How do you know that Schwimwagen you say you like didn't transport the
camp commander around?
>I never said anything about censorship or any sort my point was it is
>everyone's right to collect anything they want but not everyone will
>tolerate it and if you think this will lead to some cataclysmic world
>censorship then I guess you should be worried but I think it will be just
>like non smoking bars you can still smoke just go do it where you are the
>only one its harming.
No, I simply said it is ridiculous to draw lines of morality when it is
done selectively. I don't see Japanese Army relics being banned from
eBay, for example. I also don't see uniforms of American Soldiers, who
*might* have guarded Japanese concentration camp victims, banned from
eBay as well.
>We all need to be a little sensitive to each other it makes life a little
>less abrasive.
I agree with that. What I don't agree with is selective interference in
one person's business when it does NOT directly (or even indirectly)
affect another's simply to make one minority group feel better about
themselves. If I collect Nazi uniforms (I don't) that doesn't affect
anybody and therefore it shouldn't be restricted.
>And my 1943 Dodge took good men to where evil was and helped them put and
>end to it and everytime I get in it I think about that.
By and large correct. But those Dodges probably also helped round up
Japanese Americans and transported GIs who just murdered Japanese POWs.
Could have transported some drunk GIs after raping a couple of German
girls after a night of drinking stolen Schnapps. Then on the next day it
might have taken the nearest "Negro Soldier" to the gallows after he was
framed for said rape.
My point here is that drawing lines is a fine and imperfect process. The
broader the brush used to paint these lines, the less moral weight they
carry. And because of that, the less they should be translated into
censorship.
>Collect and wear and drive what you want I don't care.
I just wanted to point out that your own selective reasoning is exactly
why banning stuff on eBay is so wrong.
Steve
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Wed Apr 23 2003 - 13:24:59 PDT