From: Walter Keller (tokarev@earthlink.net)
Date: Thu Jan 16 2003 - 19:41:47 PST
Cant we all just talk about jerry cans? again and again and again
Steve Grammont wrote:
> Dave,
>
>
>>Machines are By themselves just machines and of little harm.
>
>
> And uniforms kill people? That is quite a stretch.
>
>
>>The uniforms become a symbol for what that group stood for and there actions
>>regardless if the person wearing it was there when they gassed a child or
>>sent her to Josephs Hospital of Horrors and Human experiment.
>
>
> And the machines that took the people to their deaths are somehow not
> relevant? It was because of these machines that the Germans were able to
> conqure others and then enslave/murder them. I would like to see how
> well Germans would have done if they marched into another country with
> nothing but uniforms with a Swastikas on them. On the other hand, naked
> Germans in tanks and armed with weapons could do a lot of harm
> (especially if the enemy soldiers couldn't stop laughing!)
>
> Machines are as much, if not more, symbols of the regime they serve as
> uniforms are. If you want to consider yourself morally above the Nazis,
> in your mind, you should cross Nazi vehicles and weapons off your
> admiration list. It would be highly inconsistant not to.
>
>
>>That person
>>was a supporter of the efforts leading to her torture and horrible death and
>>he was wearing that uniform a symbol of that groups beliefs and fellowship.
>
>
> True, to some degree. But of course this "no exceptions" logic would
> apply equally to the uniforms of every single US Army, Airforce, and
> Naval uniform produced during the Vietnam war, even if they never set
> foot in South East Asia. Or British, French, Dutch, Belgian, etc.
> uniforms at any point in time of their Colonial rule. Soviet uniforms
> produced from the time of the Revolution would also be off the list too.
>
> In any case, the association this does not exempt the vehicles or weapons
> used. They are all part of the whole. If you wish to morally shield
> yourself from the regime, you must reject all of its products and
> symbols. Not just the ones you don't think are cool.
>
>
>>You are right.... as usual men can twist the facts to suit there own point
>>of view and I guess you can separate what these evil men did from the
>>uniforms they put every morning before going down to the trains.
>
>
> There were more than a million men in SS uniforms that had nothing to do,
> directly, with the extermination of the Jews. They fought as soldiers,
> even if they more frequently than most broke the rules of war. Many
> standard line infantrymen also comitted War Crimes and Crimes Against
> Humanity. And I purposefully did NOT say "German line infantrymen"
> because the US (as well as all others) comitted atrocities. But since
> they won the war, not much is said about it.
>
>
>>Selective Morality is that what you call it when you wear the same uniform
>>after the smell of death has been dry cleaned from it.
>
>
> How do you know that Schwimwagen you say you like didn't transport the
> camp commander around?
>
>
>>I never said anything about censorship or any sort my point was it is
>>everyone's right to collect anything they want but not everyone will
>>tolerate it and if you think this will lead to some cataclysmic world
>>censorship then I guess you should be worried but I think it will be just
>>like non smoking bars you can still smoke just go do it where you are the
>>only one its harming.
>
>
> No, I simply said it is ridiculous to draw lines of morality when it is
> done selectively. I don't see Japanese Army relics being banned from
> eBay, for example. I also don't see uniforms of American Soldiers, who
> *might* have guarded Japanese concentration camp victims, banned from
> eBay as well.
>
>
>>We all need to be a little sensitive to each other it makes life a little
>>less abrasive.
>
>
> I agree with that. What I don't agree with is selective interference in
> one person's business when it does NOT directly (or even indirectly)
> affect another's simply to make one minority group feel better about
> themselves. If I collect Nazi uniforms (I don't) that doesn't affect
> anybody and therefore it shouldn't be restricted.
>
>
>>And my 1943 Dodge took good men to where evil was and helped them put and
>>end to it and everytime I get in it I think about that.
>
>
> By and large correct. But those Dodges probably also helped round up
> Japanese Americans and transported GIs who just murdered Japanese POWs.
> Could have transported some drunk GIs after raping a couple of German
> girls after a night of drinking stolen Schnapps. Then on the next day it
> might have taken the nearest "Negro Soldier" to the gallows after he was
> framed for said rape.
>
> My point here is that drawing lines is a fine and imperfect process. The
> broader the brush used to paint these lines, the less moral weight they
> carry. And because of that, the less they should be translated into
> censorship.
>
>
>>Collect and wear and drive what you want I don't care.
>
>
> I just wanted to point out that your own selective reasoning is exactly
> why banning stuff on eBay is so wrong.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
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This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Wed Apr 23 2003 - 13:24:59 PDT