From: David Cole (DavidCole@tk7.net)
Date: Mon Sep 29 2003 - 22:40:27 PDT
Well this is the slippery slope that Ashcroft and Bush have idealized.
We lost 3000+ people in this country due to terrorism and yes that was
horrible. However I have gotten over it. How many people did we lose in
Vietnam? How many in Iraq so far? I still have not gotten over Vietnam,
that was a preventable tragedy. I wasn't even a Vietnam vet, yet the
vision of watching the nightly body counts on the news with my father are
burned into my brain.
However does that mean that harrassment is ok, detainment for months at a
time is ok, etc.
When do we stop being free? Is a US Citizen who is locked up without
charges for months still free?
If this type of thing becomes acceptable, unauthorized search and seizure
becomes the norm, and detainment becomes acceptable, are you still free?
Not in my mind.
Remember the national id cards that were being considered? At this rate,
one more attack and you will need to carry "papers" to drive to the next MV
meet. Papers not good enough, how about some detainment time? Call a
lawyer? Why we have the Patriot act, and you might be a terrorist. Hence
you have no legal rights.
How hard would it be to convert the highway toll booths in this country to
"paper check" stations.
Paranoid, maybe. But I bet that 10 years ago you would have thought that
legal "detainments" in the US would never occur. Can you say, "Political
Prisoner".
It's just around the corner folks. And your elected officials are ready
and willing to implement it. In fact they already have. (:-<)
Dave - free so far.
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:44:08 -0700 (PDT), Employee@MilVeh.com
<milveh@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts
> absolutely... ( I can completely understand and
> sympathize with you, but this is not the whole story.
> )
>
> In the matter of the person inspecting your van, it
> would be my professional opinion that he was not
> really all that serious, he might have been annoyed
> and threatening, but he knew how far to push. He was
> playing with you and probably wanted to show you "he
> was in charge," probably in response to something you
> said, something that implied you were in charge and
> you were not going to take what you precieved as an
> unlawful intrusion.
>
> Border cops can be especially intimidating since they
> have never been constrained by the usual rules of
> search and seizure.
>
> Now here is the more important part:
>
> I would say such things happen all the time, in
> Canada, in the UK, in Germany and yes even in the dear
> ol USA. This is human nature. Doesn't make it right
> of course, just makes it a bit more understandable. Course there are ways
> of redress for such wrongs, but
> most of us don't want to take the time or energy,
> better to just get clear of the situation. Again,
> thats completely understandable and I would probably
> do the same thing too.
>
> One thing though and it's worth considering, I can't
> help but wonder how fast the Canadian border guys
> attitudes would change if say 3000 plus, mostly
> Canadian citizens, were butchered in day of terrorism
> in Montreal or Victoria? No, it's not an excuse for
> bad behavior, but it helps to put it in perspective.
>
> As for me, I'll never get over Sept. 11th, 2001..
> still hurts, still angry, still frustrated and yes, I
> still want justice.
>
> Lot of ill things are likely to happen to real nice,
> completely innocent folks that just happen to get
> between the bad guys who caused such murders and the
> good guys charged with a moral duty to settle the
> score. Frustrations do get taken out... right or
> wrong.
>
> But, would you be any different if it were your
> friends and family that were slaughtered? Probably
> not.
>
> Jack
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- International Movie Services <ims@telus.net>
> wrote:
>> Try this for a "nothing to fear" experience!
>> As I have for the past 18 years my wife and I
>> attended the Portland Oregon
>> chapter of the MVPA vehicle show and swap meet last
>> Friday and Saturday. We
>> have always looked forward to the opportunity to
>> visit old friends , tell
>> war stories (some of which are almost true), sort
>> through piles of neat
>> stuff and generally enjoy the cameraderie of the
>> military vehicle
>> fraternity.
>> We bought the usual eclectic mix of "junque" and
>> loaded up the wife's
>> minivan (she's not keen on driving in green machines
>> for hundreds of miles
>> on an Interstate). Drove north to our home in
>> Aldergrove, which is 5 minutes
>> north of the border crossing at Lynden, Washington,
>> arriving there at just
>> after 1900hrs on Saturday night.
>> Just 100 metres from the border there was a serious
>> sized roadblock with
>> barriers, flashing lights and an assortment of US
>> Customs, State Patrol and
>> Bellingham City Police cars checking all vehicles
>> exiting to Canada. It
>> honestly looked like some of the scenes from those
>> old movies where the bad
>> guys in the long black leather overcoats come up to
>> the vehicle and ask for
>> "papers please".
>> I was asked where we had been and replied with
>> complete faith that truth
>> does set you free that we had been to the Military
>> vehicle swap meet at the
>> National Guard Base at Camp Withycombe, Oregon. I
>> was asked if I had any
>> guns, gun parts or gas masks and with a clear
>> conscience I replied in the
>> negative. They then asked me to pull into an
>> inspection area where they
>> already had everyone from a semitrailer unit down to
>> a motorcyclist being
>> shaken down. I was asked to open all the doors on
>> the minivan, take my wife
>> and old fluffy dog and stand clear of the area as
>> they had working dogs out,
>> presumably checking for drugs, guns and explosives.
>> Up to now everything was acceptable, if a bit
>> dramatic as with all the
>> flashing red and blue lights, uniforms and dogs and
>> officers pulling out all
>> of the contents of our van, dumping out our luggage,
>> going through my wallet
>> and the wife's purse it was all a bit invasive. As
>> an old soldier (29 years)
>> I am used to the necessity of security and
>> inspections, especially in these
>> troubled times but then the situation went over the
>> top. They hauled out a
>> B-17 waist gunners steel helmet (the one with the
>> hinged ear-flaps) which
>> I'd bought for my collection and asked me what I
>> "needed a helmet for?',
>> then a standard pattern woodland flak vest which
>> they thought was a
>> controlled item and tried the intimidation approach
>> of accusation. Now I'm
>> trained in response to this method of questioning
>> and if I have the moral
>> high ground I don't take verbal abuse from anyone so
>> VERY politely I told
>> them that they were out of line and when they
>> realized that they had found
>> nothing, would find nothing and were dealing with
>> someone who wasn't about
>> to back down they tried the final approach.
>> As few of you know when a Canadian drives across the
>> US Border on anything
>> to do with business, from picking up a UPS shipment
>> to attending a
>> conference he has to pay a $5.00 Customs user fee.
>> When the examining
>> officer asked what I was planning to do with the
>> vehicle parts (a right hand
>> canvas door for an M38, and one for an M38A1), the
>> tent (a GP small),
>> the helmet and flak vest, the WW2 uniforms and all
>> the other neat stuff you
>> find at swap meets I, as stated, believing in
>> complete honesty told him that
>> some items were going on to my personal MV's. some
>> (such as a pair of very
>> rare RCAF WW2 "bail-out" boots) were going into my
>> personal collection and
>> some items after I'd sorted them out would probably
>> go into my motion
>> picture rental stock. OK, he says, you were on
>> business and since you didn't
>> pay the $5 when you went south I can seize your
>> vehicle and contents and
>> fine you $5000.00!! My wife broke down in tears and
>> I pointed out that the
>> nature of swap meets, whether military or civilian
>> was rather like a crap
>> shoot-sometimes you find items you can or could
>> resell at a profit. You can
>> go home with anything from a truckload to nothing,
>> depending on what's on
>> offer, what you can afford and need, or what is a
>> good deal. The regulation
>> as enforced would mean that any vacation, MVPA meet
>> or family gathering (my
>> brother and his family are US citizens) visit to the
>> States would require
>> either the payment of the user fee on the
>> speculation that you might find
>> something to use in your business or intend to
>> resell. Sort of a "Catch 22",
>> unless you have a reliable crystal ball!!
>> Finally reason and logic did prevail, I asked the
>> officer if what he really
>> wanted me to do was pay him the $5 and call it
>> square which we did, and
>> after a traumatic hour were allowed to proceed.
>> Arriving at Canada Customs, I asked the officer if
>> they were observing what
>> was happening on the other side of the Line and what
>> we were subjected to,
>> and suggested I gave him a large hug? He said
>> "you've been through enough
>> tonight, welcome home-you're free to go!"
>> I though hard on the word, "Freedom", I served
>> faithfully in the Armed
>> Forces in the cause of freedom and as all of you
>> other veteran's did was
>> prepared to put my life on the line if necessary. I
>> realize in these
>> difficult and dangerous times extraordinary methods
>> are needed to defend
>> what my Father and both Grandfather's fought and
>> suffered for, but we tread
>> a fine line between intimidation of our citizenry
>> and the erosion of
>> personal rights in the interest of "security".
>> Have I learned a lesson? Yes! Everytime I cross that
>> border from now on for
>> any purpose I'll pay the damned $5 even when I go to
>> the brother's for
>> Christmas. It's a small price to pay for freedom!
>> Thanks for listening, guys-typing this has been a
>> form of catharsis, had to
>> get it out of my system.
>>
>> Ian D. Newby, Major (Ret).
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kris Kirby" <kris@catonic.net>
>> To: "Military Vehicles Mailing List"
>> <mil-veh@mil-veh.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 7:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: [MV] In the name of 'security'
>>
>>
>> > On Sun, 28 Sep 2003, Ryan Gill wrote:
>> > > You very much appear to be one of the "we have
>> nothing to hide, so we
>> > > have nothing to fear" crowd.
>> >
>> > God forbid you should own an old police car!
>> *Expect* to get pulled over.
>> >
>> > If the Blues Brothers were starting out today,
>> they'd have been stopped
>> > five minutes after they got the car.
>> >
>> > > Any increase in "big brother" in the name of
>> security should be
>> > > approached with extreme caution.
>> >
>> > Amen
>> >
>> > --
>> > Kris Kirby, KE4AHR <kris@nospam.catonic.net> TGIFreeBSD IM: 'KrisBSD'
>> > "BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU!"
>> > This message brought to you by the US Department
>> of Homeland Security
>> >
>> >
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>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> ===Mil-Veh is a member-supported mailing list===
>>
> === message truncated ===
>
>
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>
-- Dave
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