From: Jim Gilmore (jgilmore@ptd.net)
Date: Mon Mar 08 2004 - 18:27:06 PST
John wrote:
>"..........While I see good evidence in Jim's argument that the government went to
>great lengths to ensure quality control on the painting of its vehicles, I
>DON'T see any evidence presented by him to say that it was followed in
>practice by the manufacturers. While Ford may have preserved its records
>stating that it met quality control standards for painting, that doesn't
>prove that every single piece of equipment rolled out of the plant with a
>paint job that could be matched to a colorimetric scale with great
>precision. Your point about parking vehicles on the lot while waiting for
>speedometers is an illustration- if there was a subtle variation in paint
>batches, would they stop all production while waiting for new paint for a
>pile of fenders, or even axles (which were not made by Ford, and were
>presumably painted by somebody else with different quality control people
>checking paint)? Would they reject AC Spark Plug Division speedometer
>bezels because their paint was not a match of Ford's own standard? I doubt
>it......"
John.....as I've said before......no offense meant but........you have no idea how Ford produced the Military vehicles during WW II. You are saying things that make sense to you but.......they are incorrect and do not reflect how things were actually done.
You state that axles were not made by Ford? Where do you get this information from? You are stating it as fact but.......I can tell you that Ford did indeed make axles for the GPW. Part No. GPW-3001 (less PN. GPW-2010-12 hubs and drums & GP-1102 & GP-1200 bearings) front axle assembly were produced by Ford and cost $84.23 each.
Rear axle assembly PN. GPW-4001 (less brakes, drums and bearings) were also produced by Ford at a cost of $36.63 each.
Willys axles were produced by Spicer with a cost of $81.60 front and $28.40 rear. This data is not a guess but is from the actual records of the company.
You presume that fenders and axles were painted by someone else and sent to Ford to be used in production without further painting. This is just not how it was done. These items when not produced by Ford, were painted OD right at the Ford plant. Ford built their own bodies and later when the Ford body was produced by American Central Co. they were delivered in primer.
Were there slight variations in the paint? Possibly so......although the paint was always mixed to the same exact measurement.....but this would not be a different color.
>".........Too many parts had paint applied at different locations for all of them to
>match that paper work that Ford generated and Jim has researched thoroughly.
>Also, the economy of labor doesn't match this argument. They were building
>jeeps on a cost plus basis. The government knew this- would they really
>want to mess with a manufacturer if paint shades didn't match on parts, slow
>down production to match shades? What a waste of time! They had bigger,
>more critical production dragons to slay............"
John......you don't understand as to how these contracts were done........or how the jeeps were assembled or painted.
A GPW was painted several times before it was shipped to the Govt. The bodies were assembled BEFORE the OD paint was put on. All GPW's had their fenders, hoods, body tubs, bumpers and all else matched in paint color. That is because they were painted when assembled and not in pieces then put together. The rolling chassis was also painted as a unit......springs, axles, frame and all were sprayed before they body/motor was installed. Then when the unit was assembled into a complete GPW it was sprayed again and all items that were not OD on the outside were painted so......(except for rubber items) The vehicle was then inspected and test driven by one of many Govt. inspectors. If it passed the inspection the data plate was stamped, the vehicle was washed and sprayed again with a final overcoat of OD. Then the Blue Drab (always blue and never white) numbers were applied and the vehicle was delivered to the Govt.
Now.......you can see that all the parts on the jeep would be the same color.......mixed the same way every time......painted the same each day........so there was no problem with the fenders matching.............
>".......And the argument OD is OD works here too. I can see new inspectors looking
>at vehicles and saying, "looks green to me," and passing them on. And this
>would have happened all throughout the production........."
Yes, but only because there was one Lusterless Olive Drab used in production.......That's why at the factory......OD was OD.
>"........Hey, I know all my arguments are anecdotal and circumstantial, but they make
>sense to me..."
OK.....but it's just not the way it was.........
> ".........And I believe further research is needed, including chemical
>analysis of original paints............."
Done already! We don't need to analyze the paint...........I have the mixing/composition formula already. We already know what's in it.
>"..........
to
>qualify the research needed on this topic, I think a few things
>need to be considered.
>1. Parts were not produced in the same quality control environment as other
>parts- question is, WHO controlled paint quality control in WWII (Who was
>the Arthur Anderson of WWII Paint)? How were they trained, how were they
>paid, and how strict were they?
Humm..........aren't you in MD? Why not go over to the National Archives and do some research on your questions? Heck, I've put in years of digging..........it's your turn to prove what you think actually happened.
>". Paints do have variances, no matter what the standards say- how do we
>pick representative NOS originals to test this assertion and support it or
>refute it?...."
You get as many samples as possible and take the largest color group and test that against the original paint. BUT..........remember.......these are REPLACEMENT parts and not items from the production lines. There is a difference in specs for some of them as opposed to parts used in production.
>3. Where is the money? Was it actually cost effective (all factors
>considered) for a WWII era company to keep tight quality control on painting
>practices? What did it cost? Was adequate labor available for this task?
ABSOLUTELY...............that was the only way to keep costs consistent as this was very important to make a profit and work within Govt. specs.
>4. Can WWII painting practices be duplicated today to test theories
>developed based on the above questions?..."
Paint + thinner + spray gun.......that's all you need. We have the paint, the thinner is available, test spray out cards will be next.
>Still interesting to me, and hate to be hard on Jim because he's a sharp guy
>and much better read on this stuff than me. But I'm just not willing to
>accept what he says without better verification.
Well........it's always good to question data if you have not seen it. You're not being hard on me...you just haven't seen the data yet.
Look me up at the East Coast Rally and I'll show you some great photos and data on this subject. Should have test spray out cards by then too.......
Jim Gilmore
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