From: G Shaw (milspectruck@verizon.net)
Date: Sat Nov 19 2005 - 09:45:07 PST
Hi Bruce
I agree. I guess the s**t is going to really have to hit the fan to have
something happen. When there are over 1 BILLION workers outside out country
that will work (and do decent quality work too) for 30 cents an hour with
Zero benefits, there is something to be said for isolationism. I realize it
will hurt a lot of the companies that are enrichening themselves doing
business with the Red Chinese communists, but there is no way we can compete
in free trade with them until they pay their workers our standard of living.
I guess we know what will have to freeze over first before that happens. If
not then we are going to find our (and the European workers too) standard of
living come down to average out with the 3rd world. I personally do not
want to live making 3 dollars a day. I would not be caught dead in a
Walmart buying that stuff just as a matter of principal, but I know I am
just shoveling s**t against the tide. May God bless Freedom and America.
Gotta go out and take the 151 for a spin. Enjoy your Saturday.
Glenn
-----Original Message-----
From: Military Vehicles Mailing List [mailto:mil-veh@mil-veh.org] On Behalf
Of Bruce C. Beattie
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 12:27 PM
To: Military Vehicles Mailing List
Subject: Re: [MV] gas and fuel costs
This pretty much says it all. I wish there was a way to wake people up
to this, but
I haven't figured that out yet.
Bruce MVPA 23824
G Shaw wrote:
>An additional point to add to Ryans excellent post is that you are all
>forgetting that oil products as well as the crude itself have been
>*commoditized* in that they are no longer sold or controlled by the
>producers themselves any more than gold is controlled by the gold
>mining industry or orange juice is controlled by the farmers. All of
>these commodities are controlled by the traders at the NYMEX. The
>prices are subject not only to real supply and demand concerns but also
>heavy manipulation by the traders on the MERC acting for hedge funds,
>pensions funds, instituional buyers etc. The traders can push the
>price up or down wildly and it has nothing to do with underlying actual
>supply and demand. The profits for the oil industry are roughly the
>same 7% that they always were. The final gross profit number is just
>higher due to the price of the raw product going from 28-70 bucks. The
>issue is very complex with a lot of big money forces at work to make a
>killing not just the oil companies who are their own worst enemy by
>doing things like shutting down a refinery for maintenance when there
>is a supply crunch. They deserve the blame for part of the problem but
>the largest force setting price now that OPEC has essentially become
>irrelevant is the traders and hedgies at the NYMEX.
>
>Eventually as China and India take over the worlds economies, as the EU
>and US go under they will control all the worlds oil for the most part
>because they will pay any price for it, and can afford it due to
>artificially low costs of production. They will produce the vast
>majority of all manufactured goods and will charge what they want for
>them as they drive competition into bankruptcy. We will no longer be
>able to afford oil or cover our ballooning deficits as our stupid
>consumers increasingly are happy to buy everything they can get their
>hands on made in Asia. Yes they are saving a buck today to screw some
>poor American or European working man and his family but it will all
>catch up with us. The world is not going to be a better place in the
>future for our kids.
>
>Later
>G
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Military Vehicles Mailing List [mailto:mil-veh@mil-veh.org] On
>Behalf Of Ryan Gill
>Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 2:14 AM
>To: Military Vehicles Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [MV] gas and fuel costs
>
>
>At 8:16 PM -0700 11/18/05, Kirk Thompson wrote:
>
>
>>Technically:
>>The way I understand it is simply supply and demand.
>>
>>Fuel oil, Diesel, and kerosine (listed in order
>>
>>
>>from lower grade to higher) are actually
>
>
>>by-products of the different stages of the
>>molecule cracking process that makes gasoline.
>>These fuel oils are actually not intentionally
>>made. Gasoline is what is desired to be made in
>>the refining process and since diesel is really
>>just a by-product, when there is a strong demand
>>(more vehicles using diesel) and there is not a
>>large supply (because if there is plenty of
>>gasoline, you don't need to make more and
>>therefore no more diesel is made), it drives the
>>cost up.
>>
>>
>
>Kerosene and Fuel Oil are thicker, Gasoline is
>more aromatic. Diesel is a mix of several
>(benzine included) aromatics that are nearly the
>same as Kerosene. The refining process will make
>a given amount of each, however, the process can
>be tweaked by additions of other chemicals to
>crack different molecules and make more or less
>of a given amount of fuel.
>
>
>
>>Personally:
>>I think we are getting screwed by Big Oil.
>>Record profits for the last 10+ years and 2005
>>being the best in history.
>>
>>
>
>As I understand it their bulk of profits are from
>the massively increased demand for crude oil in
>India and China. The refined fuels are made
>mostly in the US with some being made in Mexico
>and Canada. Europe has been selling us some
>gasoline because they've been increasing the
>number of diesel powered cars spurning a growth
>in the need for diesel and a lessening of
>gasoline. The US market has increased use of all
>fuels. Refined fuels are a very small part of
>their market.
>
>Competition will drive the prices back down. The
>fact that we have a new refinery being built for
>the first time in 20 years should help to. It'll
>be a state of the art facility which should give
>it an edge. The DOE web page has a lot of
>information on the market trends and why the
>prices actually get driven up.
>
>see http://www.doe.gov/engine/content.do?BT_CODE=PRICESTRENDS
>
>One key thing to remember is that fuels and the
>raw crude are bid on based on the prices and
>expected price increases. If prices are expected
>to go up, companies will bid on lots of fuel to
>guarantee supply, this will drive the price up a
>bit but will also at the same time limit the use
>because it becomes more expensive. If the supply
>is refreshed quickly, then being locked into the
>price for the higher fuels more or less hurts the
>company who has to sell at that price. The same
>goes for bigger and smaller fuel stations
>depending on the cycle time of their stock. More
>cycle time and they'll be stuck with the higher
>price because that's what they bought it at.
>They'll try to sell it at the lower price.
>There's a Citgo around the corner from me that I
>bought fuel from before I knew better. They're
>charging 3.59 a gallon for diesel. The Quicktrip
>that's 3 exits up I285 is selling it at 2.35. The
>Quicktrip gets their diesel in in large lots
>because they have 16 Truck sized pumps (master
>slave units) and they are an in town truck stop.
>
>
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