I'll take that as a YES for support and pass the msg along to the list.
Thanks very much,
chuck
=============================
RE>>Judging of M151 and HMMWV 3/13/97
Chuck -
I WOULD respond to the whole list if I could, but I can't (technical problem).
My take is that these guys are looking out for themselves first and foremost.
They have been conditioned to do anything the Government wants, or expresses in
the form of a demand by any person representing him/herself as an agent of the
government. They have bought, hook, line and sinker into the idea that what is
good for an organization is good for its members; i.e., the organization is the
most important thing, and that individual members really don't count for much.
They seem to have adopted the view that the demand is tantamount to a legal
command, which of course is not so.
These are the kind of guys the Government likes a LOT. They aren't bad people,
but they are subject to their conditioning.
regards,
lee
--------------------------------------
Date: 3/13/97 1:34 PM
To: Lee Phillips
From: Chuck Chriss
Dear mil-veh friends:
Below is the response from MVPA to my earlier email to them. While this
states the current MVPA policy direction, it does not respond to the questions
which I asked them. In addition, although I had addressed my letter to "MVPA
Directors and Officers" and asked to have a response to the mil-veh list, what
I got was a note just to me from Kay at HQ.
In fact, I am not sure why we need the MVPA Board of Directors to draft an
affidavit? I think that is mostly to protect MVPA, not the vehicle owners.
And that approach ignores the procedures each state uses to verify ownership
before granting a title and registration.
So my take on this response is that it is a brush-off. If that is as much as
MVPA wants to invest in our problems, then we will have to be realistic about
it and be ready to take up the load.
I would like all of you on mil-veh to respond with 1) your view of this
proposed policy and 2) your view of how MVPA is handling this. If there is
enough support, I suggest that we first try to get MVPA to take a stronger
position with the "government" and, if that fails, start an independent effort
to pressure the "government" to change policies. We will have to do our own
research to find out who the "government" is in this case. With enough
support, I am sure we can find a friend in Congress.
Please let me know how you feel about this. Please post all replies to the
whole mil-veh list so everyone can see what is happening.
Thank you,
chuck
==============================
Dear Mr. Chriss:
At present the HMMVW and M151's will be displayed at the Memphis Convention,
but at present, they will not be judged. The Board of Directors is working
on an affidavite to be signed by owners to verify legality of the vehicles,
and as soon as it is approved (hopefully the Summer BoD meeting) they will
allowed to be advertised and judged. Sorry for the inconvenience, but it is
for the protection of our members. If you have any further questions,
please, contact our office again.
Kay
MVPA, HQ
=================================================================
History added by Chuck Chriss:
=================================================================
MVPA Directors and Officers:
I recently posted the attached to the mil-veh Internet list which includes many
MVPA members. It is a comment upon the "Open Letter" recently posted by your
representative, also attached..
There is a strong sentiment on the mil-veh list opposing your policy and
methods with regard to the subject matter. In particular, we challenge you to
take more aggressive action to represent the rights and interests of the MV
enthusiast against the over-reaching of certain parts of the US Government.
Rather than "bargain" with the Feds, we would like to raise hell with them, via
our elected representatives, to stop the interference with our legitimate
pursuit of our hobby (and for some, our business).
Please reply to mil-veh@ skylee.com so all can share your response. We will
appreciate your continued involvement in this discussion.
Thank you,
Chuck Chriss
MVPA 547C
=============================================================================================
Regarding the Open Letter to MVPA members:
1. The letter states: "The MVPA was informed by federal government officials
...". Who are these officials? FBI? DOD? Who specifically is involved?
Was MVPA informed in writing? If so, please publish for all to see.
2. The letter states: "The government maintains that...". Who is the
government in this case? What exactly did they say? Was this in a written
document? If so, please publish it for all to see.
3. The letter states: "The policy was developed in the belief that it was in
the best interest of the MVPA membership and the MV hobby at large." I
respectfully disagree. The best interests of MVPA membership and the MV hobby
will be served by aggressive resistance to ANY attempt by the government to
interfere with private ownership. If they have a specific case of illegal or
stolen vehicles let them properly investigate it. This is outright
intimidation of a lawful private group where there is no claim of a crime
having been committed or planned. We should all cooperate with an official
investigation when and if there is one. Criminal activity cannot be tolerated
because it would surely ruin our hobby. But vague threats from unnamed
federal government officials must be strongly rejected.
I think MVPA should put its efforts into getting elected officials to help us
repel the bureaucrats. The MVPA is a legitimate organization of patriotic
Americans. We cooperate internationally with others who respect our country and
the contributions to world peace of the US armed forces. We should protest
loudly to our elected representatives. By trying to keep this quiet we
increase the chances of being lumped in with militias and others who are
outside the mainstream.
I would like to see MVPA join forces with veterans' groups, reenactment groups
etc. to force a showdown on this issue. I would like to see Stormin Norman
Schwartzkopf drive a privately owned, legal HMMWV up the steps of the capitol
building followed by a convoy of other HMMWVs and M151s all flying US flags.
Which Congressman is going to say WE are the problem?
How about the huge number of proud members of the VFW who rode these vehicles
all over the world? Do they want to see them suppressed? I think we can
take the high road on this issue and win!! But we have to demand the respect
we deserve, not cave in as soon as there is a threat.
I hope the mil-veh members will join me in insisting that MVPA stand up for
the rights of all owners of all types of vehicles legally obtained. This
should include protection for anyone who has inadvertently purchased a
questionable vehicle after many transfers of ownership.
Chuck Chriss
MVPA 547C (Charter Member - MVCC 1976)
===============================================================================
An open letter to all MVPA members and MV hobbyists:
The MVPA was informed by federal government officials many months ago
that possession of ex-U.S. military M151A2s, Gama Goats, and HMMWVs
could present problems for our members. The government maintains that
none of these vehicles have ever been released to the civilian market
through legitimate channels.
After much discussion at a series of MVPA Board of Directors Meetings,
it was decided to temporarily decline advertising for these vehicles in
MVPA publications while an official policy was being formulated. In
response to recent events reported on MVPA ONLINE, in SUPPLY LINE and
elsewhere the prohibition was amended to include the 1997 MVPA Annual
International Convention in Memphis.
We're making good progress on development of a permanent policy which
will treat all military vehicles - and owners - fairly across the board.
Hopefully, we will have our new policy in place by the time of the
convention in July.
Our temporary M151A2/Gama Goat/HMMWV policy was enacted for the
protection of MVPA members and the national organization. The policy was
developed in the belief that it was in the best interest of the MVPA
membership and the MV hobby at large. We regret any inconvenience to
individual MVPA members as a result of our actions.
These issues have been fully discussed in SUPPLY LINE and for many hours
in open MVPA Board of Directors Meetings. Every MVPA Director will be
happy to discuss this topic, and others, with any MVPA member.
We'll survive this minor glitch - which really only affects a handful of
MVPA members - and be a stronger, better organization as a result of the
time and effort we are spending investigating this issue and formulating
a carefully-crafted policy.
Thank you for your patience and consideration, and, as always --
"Keep 'em Rolling!"
-- Jerry Cleveland, SUPPLY LINE Editor Military Vehicle Preservation Association www.mvpa.org
------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ Received: by rccgw.chinalake.navy.mil with SMTP;13 Mar 1997 13:21:02 U Received: (from majordom@localhost) by tanith.skylee.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA03558 for mil-veh-outgoing; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 12:31:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from safety.worldcom.com (safety.worldcom.com [198.64.193.5]) by tanith.skylee.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA03553 for <mil-veh@skylee.com>; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 12:30:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from smtp@localhost) by safety.worldcom.com (8.8.5/Interliant) id OAA17237 for <mil-veh@skylee.com>; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:25:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from worldcom-58.worldcom.com(198.64.193.112) by safety.worldcom.com via smap (V1.3) id sma017217; Thu Mar 13 14:25:38 1997 Received: by worldcom-58.worldcom.com (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL VERSION 1.3.14/3.3) id AA1440; Thu, 13 Mar 97 12:44:46 -0500 Message-Id: <9703131744.AA1440@worldcom-58.worldcom.com> Received: from WorldCom with "Lotus Notes Mail Gateway for SMTP" id A34C47299C7241198625645900603763; Thu, 13 Mar 97 12:44:45 To: mil-veh <mil-veh@skylee.com> Cc: MVPA <MVPA@aol.com> From: Chuck Chriss <Chuck_Chriss@qx.com> Date: 13 Mar 97 8:11:08 Subject: Re: Judging of M151 and HMMWV Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Sender: owner-MIL-VEH@skylee.com Precedence: bulk