From: David Cole (DavidCole@tk7.net)
Date: Sat Sep 20 2003 - 10:20:12 PDT
Wow, this thread has really gone over the edge.
Steve, I'm going to guess that you don't have any kids. Since if you did
you would know that kids sometimes do things they are not suppose to and
sometime's parents don't always catch them before something goes wrong. To
my knowledge, this Kid-Parent type relationship has been going on for
thousands of years in sort of the same manner.
Sometimes Kids get into stuff that they should not and do some damage. Is
that wrong, of course. Should we hang them so they don't do it again, I
don't think so.
My point regarding software and security is that: When a kid, with minimal
education and some time to cause mischeif on a generic computer can cause
great harm to a "secure" server, there is a problem with the server. We
both know that the kid should not be doing this, granted. But there is a
bigger problem with the server, since we both know that there are experts
out there also, who can do a much better job hacking a server than some kid
doing some hacking in the living room. This should serve as a wake up
call.
Ok, so the kid should go to counseling and the kids parents should be fined
$1000 for letting him get into trouble, but thrown into jail? Yeah right.
We would all be better off if someone asked the kid how he did the hack,
asked his friends what they know about hacking and build code into the
server that is resistant to such attacks. Because you and I know that the
expert hackers know one hell of a lot more than these kids.
Your shoot the kid, ignore the security risk idea is a little over the top.
I've known a lot of kids that have come from very rough backgrounds, were
abandoned, abused etc. and very few have I found were anything close to
evil intended. They were simply a result of their environment and most can
be helped with some attention.
I just don't understand why some people come to Microsoft's defense over
and over again. They have produced some really crappy software that has
created major security holes in America. They have a protected monopoly
over the software they produce and for some reason a lot of people think
this is ok.
BTW, if we had no guns in America, people would use knives and sticks to
kill each other. I am certainly not of the "the gun is the problem"
mindset.
Dave
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 23:58:28 -0400, Steve Grammont <islander@midmaine.com>
wrote:
>
>
>> I'm advocating realistic and proportional response to the hacking
>> problem (that's not really a problem).
>
> It is for me both as an end user and as someone whose lively hood depends
> on the Internet. The only people who don't think hacking is a really big
> problem are hackers (like yourself) and the ignorant. Unfortunately most
> parents are ignorant in far too many ways when it comes to computers.
>
>> If the Government put more pressure on Microsoft to secure their
>> products
>
> If the Government put more pressure on gun makers to secure their
> products... follow the logic train and see the wreck it makes. It isn't
> Microsoft's responsibility to prevent criminal behavior, and it certainly
> has no authority to punish it. That is the Government's responsibility
> on both counts.
>
> In theory there shouldn't be ANY NEED for security measures. I also
> shouldn't have to lock my house or my car in theory either. If people
> would respect the law, property rights, and common decency everything
> would be peachy. In regards to hacking, the best way to wake parents
> (the key to a part of the problem) is to start throwing little Billy and
> littly Johny Jr. into jail just like they would if they broke into a bank
> "for the fun of it".
>
>> If a kid can pick the lock of the Pentagon then the Pentagon needs to
>> re-examine their security.
>
> That's my point. The natural boundaries to big, huge, destructive
> physical CRIMINAL acts are too great so they rarely happen. But
> ironically one kid can fairly easily cause far more damage and harm with
> a computer and Internet connection than anything even groups of cunning
> grown men couldn't do in the physical world over many years.
>
>> It used to be, what got a kid a conversation between dad and a cop
>> results in felonies and
>
> If a kid goes out and broke into 10 stores in an hour's period, I would
> hope that the cop wouldn't have a stern talk with his dad/mom and leave
> it at that. I want that kid to face REAL and SERIOUS consequences
> because it is clear the dad/mom is a failure as a parent so pardon me if
> I don't have much faith in an improvement. Of course, you think of
> hacking as I think of spitting on the sidewalk. I think of hacking as a
> felony offence, as bad as insider trading, stock price manipulation, wire
> fraud, or any other serious white collar crime I can think of. And yeah,
> I think white collar criminals are, on the whole, very under punished.
>
> I have as much tollerance for kid hackers as I do little punks who think
> torturing animals is fun and doesn't harm anybody. Both should be dealt
> with in a very serious manner.
>
> Steve
>
>
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-- Dave
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