Re: I STILL don't get it re: easy 5-ton question

From: Dave Sofio (dave.nfesc@gmail.com)
Date: Mon Dec 12 2005 - 22:11:27 PST

Thanks, Sean, J, and all the others who helped incrementally. My slim
experience with duallies (a passenger-size tow-truck, my old Iveco van,
my Dodge RAM) never suggested to me that there was a more advanced [or
at least harder-to-disassemble] system out there.

The missing bit of communication was a good description of the Budd
lug: the "cap nut" (indeed this is the manual and parts book
description) is more like a threaded...er...condom...threads are inside
and out, so it completely COVERS the inner stud, thereby allowing the
rounded shoulder to push/retain the inner wheel to the "real" stud...so
it would never have occurred to me that the "real" stud is actually
smaller and hidden within the cap nut.

Sean Nichols sent me a GREAT photo of a lug complete with ID labels, key
thing being that it was shot at such an angle that the threaded hole in
the "condom" is visible (unlike the shot I'd found on the web). I don't
think attachments can be accepted/visible on the list, but I did get it
directly & it explains things perfectly. I needed this explanation to
understand and be prepared to deal with this away from home soon, since
on the road I am an Army of One/can't rely on soldier #2 to help!

Mahalo,

Dave

J wrote:

>
> Dave,
> See the conical base on that jobbie? That is what holds the inner
> wheel onto the hub. There are probably a billion heavy trucks out
> there that use this, both commercially and military.
> The pictured Budd lug you show is not called a stud, so the
> manual would not call it that. All you need to change any of the
> wheels on a deuce or 5T is the one double ended wrench and a long
> metal rod to turn it. See this:
>
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> Dave Sofio wrote:
>
>> J,
>> Don't worry, I spend too much of my paychecks on tools; I just don't
>> have any standard-issue tools for the M51. I'd pre-busted the 1-1/2"
>> lug nuts with a rattle gun while I was within hose-range of my
>> compressor on the very steep slope in front of my place, to make sure
>> I could get them off manually at the remote (flat) location where I'd
>> planned to do the wheel-swap. I only brought minimal tools to the
>> remote, flat location to do the wheel work...that didn't get done...
>>
>> To all who wrote:
>> To be contrary, TM 9-2320-211-10 (OPERATOR'S MANUAL FOR TRUCK, 5-TON,
>> 6X6, M39 SERIES) page 3-42 ("3-14. Wheel and Tire Replacement") makes
>> no mention of removing studs or of using square-drive for the purpose
>> of wheel replacement. Why not, if this is indeed necessary?
>>
>> Not that I think this is a conspiracy to see if I will actually
>> remove the studs for no reason...(you wouldn't all be that
>> cruel...could you?) but I do wonder if this is a model difference or
>> some such, compared what everyone else is familiar with, especially
>> now that I am looking at the documentation. To remove the Budd
>> lugs, I'd first have to go buy something to drive the square-ends of
>> the studs. Then to do the work, I'll again have to go drive the
>> truck somewhere that's got room and somewhat flat, where I will not
>> have any surprise-tool-needs nearby, nor compressed air, and sure
>> don't want to get into that unless it's a sure thing and I'm fully
>> equipped.
>>
>> Wheel removal method is not 100% clear even from the manual. In the
>> same section, the manual states: "([step]8) Remove cap nuts
>> ([item]6) to remove inner wheel," (note: says "nuts," not studs, Budd
>> lugs, etc., & no reference elsewhere to removing studs, square-drive,
>> etc). Big problem with that particular instruction is the adjacent
>> illustrated item [6] cannot be seen, as it falls within a sea of
>> black ink that once was a drawing of the tire and rim... it didn't
>> reproduce well in the electronic version, so I am not sure what they
>> are describing. Other drawings in that section might or might not be
>> using that same item number, and they are pointing to what look like
>> ordinary lug nuts. I'd expect that if studs are to be removed there
>> would certainly be mention of it, considering the level of detail on
>> other tasks in this section. And when looking at them, I can see no
>> evidence that the studs even COULD be retaining the wheels.
>>
>> The attached is a photo of a Budd lug (not mine), not necessarily
>> identical to those on the M51, but looking a lot like what one lister
>> described. From this also, I can't see how removing these would
>> release my inners. Is this not of the type y'all are describing?
>> A section-view or exploded view of the dual-wheel and hub assembly
>> would sure be worth 1000 words...or I could actually just explode
>> mine and be done with it...
>>
>> Mahalo,
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> J wrote:
>>
>>> Dave,
>>> Sooner or later you're going to need a bunch of tools from Harbor
>>> Freight or elsewhere. One of them is a socket set that includes the
>>> 1.5 inch hex socket and the 7/8(or whatever it is) square drive
>>> socket. These are standard items for all big trucks. The mil uses a
>>> 1 foot long double ended lug wrench that you stick a very long rod
>>> into to get these things apart. Standard tightening torque for the
>>> 5ton is 400 ft-lbs, if I recall. Jim
>>>
>>> Dave Sofio wrote:
>>>
>>>> uhhh...lug wrench? not sure I've even got one. Is there a
>>>> well-hidden location where one might find this shining technical
>>>> marvel? The behind-the-cab toolbox (M51 dump) is long gone.
>>>>
>>>> But even on close inspection, I couldn't see how the studs might
>>>> hold the "inners" in place. The stud threads end just outside the
>>>> newly-exposed part of the inner rim dish, & there is no change in
>>>> stud diameter visible, so it's hard to imagine how the studs would
>>>> work to keep the inners in place. But I'll take three...make that
>>>> four now... people's word for it & try to come up with a facsimile
>>>> for a square-drive lug wrench, and see what loosens.
>>>> Maybe this IS worth a look through the 800 files on my CD...
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the replies.
>>>>
>>>> --Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hutterer, John (MPAU) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dave,
>>>>>
>>>>> This may sound dumb, but...you are aware that the inner wheels are
>>>>> held
>>>>> on with their own lug nuts? That's what the square drive socket is
>>>>> for
>>>>> on the other end of the lug wrench. Left hand thread on left side,
>>>>> if I
>>>>> remember correctly.
>>>>>
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Military Vehicles Mailing List [mailto:mil-veh@mil-veh.org] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Dave Sofio
>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 12:49 PM
>>>>> To: Military Vehicles Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: [MV] easy 5-ton question
>>>>>
>>>>> This is SO basic I don't even think I would find it on my
>>>>> documentation
>>>>> CD...anyway, I've got a dead inner dually that I tried to swap
>>>>> with my
>>>>> spare yesterday, while away from home & preferred tools. Lug nuts
>>>>> came
>>>>> off OK, and I wrestled the outer wheel off with some effort, but the
>>>>> inner is locked on with...what? Rust? Paint? Krazy glue? Unseen
>>>>> fasteners? If I'd had a second jack, I'd have used it to try to
>>>>> force
>>>>> the thing off. Levers, whacking with a hammer-like field-improvised
>>>>> tool, and copious swearing all failed to remove it. Am I missing
>>>>> anything?
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe it's good I didn't have my sledge with me.
>>>>>
>>>>> --Dave
>>>>>
>>>>> ===Mil-Veh is a member-supported mailing list=== To unsubscribe, send
>>>>> e-mail to <mil-veh-off@mil-veh.org> To reach a human, contact
>>>>> <ackyle@gmail.com> Visit the searchable archives at
>>>>> http://www.mil-veh.org/archives/
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
>>>>> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
>>>>> ______________________________________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ******************************************
>>>>> The information contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may
>>>>> contain confidential information and is intended solely for the
>>>>> use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed and may
>>>>> be subject to legal privilege. If you have received this e-mail
>>>>> in error you should notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail,
>>>>> delete the message from your system and notify your system
>>>>> manager. Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its
>>>>> contents to any other person. The views or opinions presented in
>>>>> this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
>>>>> represent those of the company. The recipient should check this
>>>>> e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The
>>>>> company accepts no liability for any damage caused, directly or
>>>>> indirectly, by any virus transmitted in this email.
>>>>> ******************************************
>>>>>
>>>>> Smiths Medical is a Division of Smiths Group plc. Incorporated in
>>>>> England No: 362847 Registered Office: 765 Finchley Road London
>>>>> NW11 8DS, UK
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>No virus found in this outgoing message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/197 - Release Date: 12/9/05
>
>

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Tue Jul 18 2006 - 21:37:02 PDT