If you have noticed, the common term in the news now is "Gun Violence".
Not "Madman kills people" but "Gun Violence". If these people used
knives, would they call it knife violence? I don't think so. The
second lead story always seems to be about "military style weapons".
They aren't painting a very pretty picture of "military style stuff" are
they. Even though most who know would trade an AK47 for a good 12 gauge
pump given the right circumstances. Only the foolish would think that
this type of bad rap given to military style guns (ie stuff) won't
dribble over to MV's. I scared the hell out of the secretary in the
insurance office when I showed her a picture of my M54 dump truck dressed
in full camo paint. She asked me what I use such a truck for? I don't
think that she believed me when I said "to haul dirt". My insurance got
dropped recently. No accidents, no tickets, just dropped. If you
aren't concerned about this political stuff, then you should be. The
ramifications of gun legislature could easily affect your ownership of
MV's and once it happens it will be very difficult to reverse as we are a
small group of people compared to the general population.
Dave Cole
On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 07:29:49 -0500 Jon Shoop <shoop19@idt.net> writes:
>At 02:00 AM 7/11/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>First of all, my apologies to Arthur and the listees who find
>>this thread offensive or off-topic. I had suggested to take it
>>privately, but it does not seem to want to...
>>
>>Well, if Mr. Shoop and his acolytes think that the Second
>>Amendment text is sacred and should not be brought in conformity
>>with the 21st Century needs, then I submit that he be allowed,
>>as every citizen in the country his full contingent of flints,
>>muskets, lead balls and black powder. PERIOD!
>>Of course, mixing black powder with other substances and hiding
>>it in the basement of Federal buildings would be a no-no...
>>
>>Read on, this is important! These are YOUR RIGHTS!!
>>
>>> ...A well regulated Militia, composed of the Gentlemen,
>>Freeholders, and
>>> other Freemen, was necessary to protect our ancient laws and
>>liberty from
>>> the standing army...and we do each of us, for ourselves
>>respectively,
>>> promise and engage to keep a good Fire-Lock in proper Order&
>>to furnish
>>> Ourselves as soon as possible with, & always keep by us one
>>Pound of
>>> Gunpowder, four pounds of lead, one dozen gun flints, and a
>>pair of bullet
>>> molds, with a Cartouch Box, or Powder Horn, and a bag for
>>balls........
>>
>>I would be laughing out loud if it wasn't such a serious
>>issue...
>>
>>All of Chris DeWitt comments were concise, articula and
>>historically correct.
>>Too bad they were interspersed with the usual pitiful arguments
>>which have been the backbone of the "gun people"
>>rhetoric...Syllogisms, which are logical arguments based on
>>flawed premises.
>>We heard this so-called "reasoning" so many times, I am really
>>getting ticked off...
>>Like assimilating guns with cars, knives, hammers... Helloooo!
>
>There is a big impact when you consider these project kill more people
>than
>guns...try saving small children by outlawing 5 gallon buckets...they
>drown
>more children each year than are killed by firearms...period!
>
>
>>BIG DIFFERENCE: Guns are designed to KILL... K.I.L.L. (sport
>>shooting and punching paper are after all, afterthoughts)
>>Cars are designed to transport, hammers designed to drive nails,
>>knives to cut food etc...yes, people get hurt in accidents, hit
>>or cut their fingers etc...
>>If the gun is as the "gun people" say an INANIMATE object, let
>>it be just that... a display piece or else, they should change
>>their line of discourse and call it a weapon.
>>Also it's about time to start referring to really meaningful and
>>related statistics, not to irrelevant numbers.
>>
>>It is a fact that our Constitution has been amended in the
>>course of our short history, as Chris pointed out... (Women's
>>right to vote, abolition of slavery and other)
>>If we cannot change that Second Amendment to bring it in line
>>with the needs of a modern enlightened society, then we have
>>better find ways to make sure this infringeable Right to Bear
>>Arms will never be used for anything other than what was
>>intended by the Framers. PERIOD.
>>
>>> >Does owning a gun really make the average household safer?
>><Chris asks>
>>>
>>> It does in mine......knock my door down some nite or day and
>>see......
>>
>>You see what I mean? aggressive self-serving righteousness...
>
>No....self defense........I don't know if you have known anyone who's
>home
>has been invaded,.......but I have...with dire consequences........the
>owners didn't need a gun in the house......guess what...there is one
>there
>now...
>
>
>
>
>>that's all there is here, especially when you also read the
>>answer to:
>>> >There is no way they could have foreseen what 20th/21st
>>century America
>
>>> >would become.
>>>
>>> Really.....like a cesspool of drug activity...no moral
>>> absolutes.......prayer in school abandoned.......ect......
>>
>>Does anybody recognizes the real agenda here? which morals?
>>which prayers?
>
>Hoe about Thou shalt not steal..or kill...how about YOUR silent
>prayer.....worked well when we went to school....Hey...how come no
>private
>schools have turned sour...only public ones......my son goes to a
>Jesuit
>school.....and I know of none that has had any
>problems.....but....they
>don't teach everyone there the feel good method......do what makes you
>feel
>good...etc.....
>
>The agenda is for people to be responsible...and that can be
>taught...in
>school...as well as in the home...
>>
>>And, finally the most objectionable answer to this question from
>>Chris:
>>>>: Does your right to immediate gratification supersede the
>>>>rights of all of us to live in a safer society?
>>
>>>Gratification?????????How will you be safer......and who will
>>regulate
>>>that.......the best gun free society in the world was a
>>camp......for
>>>Jews , rounded up as defenseless people......and
>>exterminated....
>>
>>Please Mr. Shoop, don't insult our intelligence by answering
>>beside the point:
>>and please leave the Jews out of this debate. 6 million of Jews
>>have paid the ultimate price for the exercise of their freedom
>>of religion, and many of them continue to fall, still victims of
>>hatred and intolerance. Using them to support such a lame
>>argument is an insult to their memory.
>
>Give me a break....they were also systematically disarmed..........the
>heros were the Jewish residents of the Warsaw ghetto...who cost the
>Germans
>dearly, when arms were taken up..to fight them.....
>
>
>You might want to read some writings, taken from Jewish publications
>available from the JFPO, Jews For the Preservation of Firearms
>Ownership...you might learn something.....
>
>http://www.jpfo.org/
>
>>
>>If you treat the people you are talking to like ignorant and
>>uninformed idiots, they'll pay you back in kind.... Now, that
>>won't help your cause much, will it?
>
>Sir...you would be surprised how many uninformed idiots are making
>decisions that directly effect me......some of whom have no idea what
>the
>Federalist papers are..or whats in them.....have you read them?
>>
>>Antoine
>>
>>Don't worry.....Antoine.....I am finished with this thread...most
>members
>may not feel exactly as I do..and thats cool....they don't have
>to...but
>the point is still the same...and they do know that...to be vigilant,
>and
>give up no rights...written or natural, for any politician that tells
>you
>that it is better to feel good about perceived safety...
>
>that in the long run...is not in every ones best interest.......
>
>Remember some recent massacres of unarmed people..........Rwanda,
>Kosovo.....ect....
>
>History my friend...history!
>
>Take care....
>
>Jon
>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Jon Shoop <shoop19@idt.net>
>>To: <Ranger3id@aol.com>
>>Cc: <mil-veh@skylee.com>
>>Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 10:37 PM
>>Subject: Re: [MV] Good for Antoine
>>>
>>SNIP, SNIP & RE-SNIP Just a few comments here and there:
>>
>>> Name the only difference between our Republic.....and others
>>who have
>>> failed.......
>>>
>>> ????? How about the Second Amendment.......try that one on for
>>size......
>>
>>Oh that's a very good one, and on what exactly are you basing
>>this assertion?
>>>
>>> >We as individual citizens haven't needed to supply our own
>>weapons in any
>>> >major conflict since the revolution.
>>>
>>> Want to bet......Obviously you were not around in WWII when
>>Moms and young
>>> sons drilled on high school football fields with Dads shotguns
>>and
>>> rifles...to defend the west coast..in case the Japs invaded...
>>
>>Again, besides the point. Good Propaganda and photo
>>opportunities for civilian morale though, but hardly the whole
>>nation as implied by Chris.
>>>
>>> How about when the NRA collected donated weapons after
>>Dunkirk...to give to
>>> the Brits...when they left all their shit in
>>France......Because the had no
>>> small arms.........
>>
>>DO you actually know the number of guns collected? I bet it's
>>another propaganda coup...
>>>
>>> With the exception of those foaming at
>>> >the mouth fanatics who long for armed confrontation with the
>>government,
>>> >there doesn't seem to be any threat looming of it on the
>>horizon.
>>>
>>> Only a fool, fails to learn from the past..........
>>
>>Yes, like I said in previous posts we are dealing here with
>>nostalgics of the American Revolution who haven't grown up
>>since...
>>>
>>> Yeah, the
>>> >Democrats are scum bags. But guess what, so are the
>>Republicans, and so are
>>> >99.9% of all politicians. But, they will eventually listen to
>>the masses. If
>>> >enough crazy people wig out with guns, losing our right to
>>ownership could
>
>>> >become a reality.
>>
>>You bet!
>>>
>>> Be prepared to fight..........or sit it out like over 90% did
>>in the big
>>> fight with the King.......
>>
>>Nostalgic of the Revolution again?
>>Of course Heaven forbids considering a democratic fight..I am
>>sure he means a blood bath! and where did he get that 90% figure
>>from?
>>>
>>> We won't win any points by burying our heads in the sand
>>> >and stating that all responsibility belongs in the hands of
>>the nut cases
>>> >that kill.
>>>
>>> Of course it does..You have to be kidding........I am not to
>>blame....nor
>>> are you....come on...thats a cop out......thats the basis of
>>our
>>> society....to leave alone the majority...and punish the
>>guilty!
>>>
>>> Of course they are responsible for their actions, but gun
>>> >manufacturers, just like auto manufacturers have to be held
>>to the highest
>>> >standards of gun safety. I
>>>
>>> Guns are safe...can you imagine...with the number of weapons
>>in our
>>> hands......how many people would be killed........with the
>>anti gun
>>> logic..and yours.......a gun show would have to be a killing
>>ground.....
>>
>>ROFL... as long as any nutcase, enraged, deranged, drunk or
>>incapacitated person can snuff out a life by the press of a
>>finger, guns ARE NOT SAFE. Furthermore, our society produces in
>>great numbers young people who lack the moral fibre to restrain
>>themselves,and discern right from wrong. Do we want to give
>>access to guns to these people? I don't think so..
>>>
>>> as safe as anything or any other tool.....Give me a break!
>>>
>>> f they have the ability to manufacture a safer
>>>
>>> >weapon, than it is criminal not to do so, just based on
>>profits.
>>
>>Of course it is...like GM saving 10 bucks on their rear-mounted
>>tanks... Product liability should be (and will be) applicable to
>>guns also, or it is an admission of their inherent lethality.
>>>
>>> You have been listening to Josh Sugarman too long.....
>>
>>Yawn!!!
>>>
>>> We too bear
>>> >some responsibility, as gun owners to be able to enter the
>>debate with open
>>> >minds. Am I suggesting we quit, and give up our rights? No,
>>of course not.
>>> >But I personally feel something needs to be done to stem the
>>tide of gun
>>> >violence.
>>
>>Absolutely indispensable: address the core problems, not just
>>the symptoms.
>>>
>>> Draconian punishment..........up front and swift....but we try
>>to blame
>>> someone else..."he was abused...the gun did it.......he heard
>>his mother
>>> and grandmother argue alot" WWWAAAAAAAAAA!
>>>
>>> I caught one of my MP5s sneaking out not long ago..with a
>>loaded mag.....I
>>> scolded it and locked him up in the safe...BAD gun..Bad!
>>
>>You know of course what he is advocating here: not to reduce the
>>number of gun-related victims, but add to the list the bodies of
>>the punished...It does not register in his mind that there must
>>be ways to REDUCE gun-related casualties...but then again, they
>>are no real will on the "gun people" part to change the status
>>quo...
>>
>>> >
>>> >Yes, we might even end up like our brothers in Europe and
>>Canada.
>>>
>>> But, having
>>> >been stationed in Europe for 3 1/2 years, and having visited
>>Canada on a
>
>>> >number of occasions, other than their inability to speak
>>proper English,
>>> they
>>> >don't seem like such bad places (plus you have about
>>one-tenth the chance of
>>> >being killed in a gun related crime).
>>>
>>> All the people killed in gun less countries are dead...so I
>>doubt you met
>>> any of them at ask about gun ownership.....I wish you could
>>> though........Hell...there were 20 million Russians
>>alone......and of the 6
>>> million Jews..I bet some of them wished they had been allowed
>>to own
>>> guns......
>>
>>And...what's exactly your point? Does it ever dawns on you that
>>the majority of people in the world PREFER to resolve their
>>problems without violence? and hellooo, the 20 Million Russians
>>in WW2 had plenty of guns, their and ours via lend-lease...
>>>
>>> Chris...I feel sorry for you...live free or die....my
>>friend.......good
>>> luck. You would have made a great subject of the King!
>>>
>>Here, this old nostalgia surfacing again...
>>>
>>>
>>And no, Antoine has absolutely NO intention to pack his bags and
>>go...
>>
>
>
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