From: JEFF HAIN-MATSON (flmv@flmv.net)
Date: Sun Nov 21 2004 - 06:15:03 PST
Steve Grammont wrote:
> Thanks for the info Jeff. Note that the NH regulations do not cover
> bidders, only the auctioneers and sellers.
That did surprise me as well!!
> The Utah one you cited does
> apparently cover bidders as well as auctioneers and sellers.
>
> The problem I have with this is that the government can not FORCE me to
> bid. And because of that, this part of the Utah statute bugs me...
>
> " Collusive bidding is defined as any agreement or understanding reached
> by two or more parties
Written or unwritten, an agreement is an agreement!!!! It is the law.
> that changes the bids the parties would otherwise
> offer absent the agreement or understanding."
>
Notice this includes teaming up to make a higher bid than either would have alone,
absurd, but still the law.
>
> So, if friends follow the general unwritten agreements of friendship
> (i.e. "we're friends, and friends don't do certain things to each
> other"), yet are both in an auction, then the law mandates that if a
> friend bids on something that I am obligated to bid against him if it was
> something I'd have bid on if he wasn't there? Yeah... right. Prove that
> in court, Mr. Prosecutor :-)
If you want to pay a $300.00 an hour federal level lawyer to prove your point, go
for it. Ask any of the people the government dragged into the original mess how
expensive it is to prove your innocent (guilty till proven otherwise with the
original case)
> It is absurd when one is looking at
> recreational items being bid on by friends for personal use. Totally
> different ball game when the entities are commercial in nature and are
> colluding for reasons directly related to their businesses.
>
> Steve
>
> >here is what the state of New Hampshire says:
> >
> >http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XXXI/358-G/358-G-1.htm
> >
> >TITLE XXXI
> >TRADE AND COMMERCE
> >CHAPTER 358-G
> >REGULATION OF AUCTIONS
> >Section 358-G:1
> > 358-G:1 Definitions. - As used in this chapter:
> > I. "Auction" means the public sale of property real or personal, or
> >both, in
> >which the sale price of the property offered is increased by bids until the
> >highest acceptable bidder becomes the purchaser pursuant to RSA 311-B.
> > II. "Collusive bidding" means a practice whereby the auctioneer, the
> >seller,
> >or anyone acting on behalf of the auctioneer or seller, causes, employs
> >any person
> >to engage in, or knowingly allows, fictitious bidding during an auction
> >for the
> >purpose of bidding up the price of any goods in competition with bona fide
> >bidders, or for the purpose of encouraging or enticing bona fide bidders to
> >purchase, or for the purpose of stimulating competitive bidding to purchase.
> >Collusive bidding shall include any use of false bidders, cappers, shills, or
> >by-bidders.
> > III. "Person" means any person defined by RSA 358-A:1, I.
> >Source. 1979, 447:1, eff. Aug. 24, 1979. 1998, 17:1, eff. Jan. 1, 1999.
> >
> >here is what they say in cache county utah:
> >
> >http://www.cachecounty.org/auditor/procedures.php
> >
> >SECTION 4: PROHIBITION OF COLLUSIVE BIDDING
> >Collusive bidding is prohibited. Collusive bidding is defined as any
> >agreement or
> >understanding reached by two or more parties that changes the bids the
> parties
> >would otherwise offer absent the agreement or understanding.
> >
> >And apparently if you google "11 U.S.C. 363 (n) collusion" you will se it
> >comes up
> >time and again in bankruptcy sales (traditionally there are not a lot of
> >bidders
> >there).
> >
> >Your argument that a larger bidder pool makes it legal is the same as
> >saying "if
> >25 cars are speeding then it's legal for me to speed also". I don't
> >think that
> >will hold up in court!!
> >
> >One of ebays biggest problems that they try to keep a lid on is collusive
> >bidding
> >with shill bidders running up items. If they don't keep a lid on it, be
> >sure that
> >government will do it for them, and kill ebay in the process.
> >
> >
> >
> >Steve Grammont wrote:
> >
> >> I should have read Alan's post before responding to Jeff :-) My limited
> >> understanding is that Alan is correct. A buddy and I not bidding on the
> >> same item at the same time is no different than two guys being in a large
> >> public auction, sitting next to each other, and not raising a hand if the
> >> buddy does. It is common practice and it is more designed to not have
> >> friends going at each other's throats than it is to control the price of
> >> the bidding (which is impossible on eBay).
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >> >What you are discussing is apples and oranges. Collusive bidding in
> regards
> >> >to a federal DRMO auction is not the same- or even close- to eBay.
> The eBay
> >> >activity is still open to millions of other bidders, as well as being a
> >> >private company. It is certainly NOT illegal by any stretch. No
> matter what
> >> >a small group of folks do, a million people are still able to bid on any
> >> >item at any time.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >on 11/20/04 10:20 AM, JEFF HAIN-MATSON at flmv@flmv.net wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> correct, what you are doing is illegal!! it is collusive bidding, and i
> >> >bet if
> >> >> these other people are in different states, the FBI would be involved.
> >> >not a
> >> >> pretty picture.
> >> >>
> >> >> Steve Grammont wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Wow... I have "cease fire" arrangements with probably a dozen fellow
> >> >>> eBayers so we don't wind up killing each other over items of mutual
> >> >>> interest. Instead we email each other and see if other
> arrangements can
> >> >>> be made. Guess I should be looking over my shoulder for some DA
> looking
> >> >>> to make a name for himself :-)
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Steve
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> for everybody's information:
> >> >>>> The below link should also include the same cases against the top 20
> >> >people
> >> >>>> buying surplus at the time on the east coast. A new U.S. attorney
> >out of
> >> >>>> Philadelphia was trying to make a name for himself, convinced that
> >> >there had
> >> >>>> to be collusive bidding since the acquisition cost vs. the sale
> >price of
> >> >>>> tractor trailer sized lots was so big. Several dealers pled guilty
> >> >(Sarafan
> >> >>>> was not one as far as i know). the charges were dropped eventually
> >> against
> >> >>>> the rest, and the new U.S. attorney was fired for wasting lots of
> >> taxpayer
> >> >>>> money on what was found to be a non issue!!
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> m35products wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/sarafa0.htm
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> ===Mil-Veh is a member-supported mailing list===
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> >> veh.org>
> >> >>>>> To reach a human, contact <ack@mil-veh.org>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> --
> >> >>>> JEFF HAIN-MATSON
> >> >>>> FRONT LINE MILITARY VEHICLES WEB SITE: http://www.flmv.net/
> >> >>>> WRIGHTSVILLE PA
> >> >>>> 717-252-4489 VOICE
> >> >>>> 717-252-4499 FAX
> >> >>>> flmv@flmv.net E-MAIL
> >> >>>> MVPA #1833
> >> >>>> IMPS #1726
> >> >>>> MVT #9362
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> ===Mil-Veh is a member-supported mailing list===
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> >veh.org>
> >> >>>> To reach a human, contact <ack@mil-veh.org>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> JEFF HAIN-MATSON
> >> >> FRONT LINE MILITARY VEHICLES WEB SITE: http://www.flmv.net/
> >> >> WRIGHTSVILLE PA
> >> >> 717-252-4489 VOICE
> >> >> 717-252-4499 FAX
> >> >> flmv@flmv.net E-MAIL
> >> >> MVPA #1833
> >> >> IMPS #1726
> >> >> MVT #9362
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ===Mil-Veh is a member-supported mailing list===
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> >> >> To switch to the DIGEST mode, send e-mail to <mil-veh-digest@mil-
> veh.org>
> >> >> To reach a human, contact <ack@mil-veh.org>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >===Mil-Veh is a member-supported mailing list===
> >> >To unsubscribe, send e-mail to: <mil-veh-off@mil-veh.org>
> >> >To switch to the DIGEST mode, send e-mail to <mil-veh-digest@mil-veh.org>
> >> >To reach a human, contact <ack@mil-veh.org>
> >> >
> >>
> >> ===Mil-Veh is a member-supported mailing list===
> >> To unsubscribe, send e-mail to: <mil-veh-off@mil-veh.org>
> >> To switch to the DIGEST mode, send e-mail to <mil-veh-digest@mil-veh.org>
> >> To reach a human, contact <ack@mil-veh.org>
> >
> >--
> >JEFF HAIN-MATSON
> >FRONT LINE MILITARY VEHICLES WEB SITE: http://www.flmv.net/
> >WRIGHTSVILLE PA
> >717-252-4489 VOICE
> >717-252-4499 FAX
> >flmv@flmv.net E-MAIL
> >MVPA #1833
> >IMPS #1726
> >MVT #9362
> >
-- JEFF HAIN-MATSON FRONT LINE MILITARY VEHICLES WEB SITE: http://www.flmv.net/ WRIGHTSVILLE PA 717-252-4489 VOICE 717-252-4499 FAX flmv@flmv.net E-MAIL MVPA #1833 IMPS #1726 MVT #9362
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